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2007-02-16

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3年は隠しておくつもりだと思っていたのだけど、ASP.NETを何も知らないところからほぼ全てやっつけたGonzaloが、奥さんができたというまあしょーもない事情で、新しい仕事に移ってしまった。もう2ヶ月前のことだ。今でこそ20人くらいでやっているけど、僕が参加した頃なんて、Duncanも含めて6,7人でランタイムからコンパイラからASP.NETまでやっつけていたわけで、もうネ申としか言いようがない。

今うちの（社内の）チームがどんな感じで仕事しているか、表から見える範囲で列挙してみる。昔はチームメンバーリストのページがあったんだけど。

あとはMainsoftの面々もASP.NETやXmlやADO.NETやSystem.DirectoryServicesあたりをいじったりするか。でもmonoのbugzillaにあるバグを直したりすることは（それが自分たちにとってblockerでもない限りは）しない。

Miguelはほとんどマネジメントが仕事なので（その割にはかなりいろんなところをいじっているけど）計上していない。

あとの作業は主にコミュニティのボランティア。xbuild(MSBuild)まわりとかJScriptとかMono.Unixとか。こまごまとしたものは多くの場合は必要になった人がやっつける。

人増やさないとまずいんだよねえ。僕の仕事なんてかなり雑魚い方だけど、それでもXslCompiledTransformをやってくれとか言われたりするし。ランタイムなんてもっとずっとやばい。

C# 3.0 status

Marek (C#コンパイラの方）がひっそりとやっていたextension methodsの実装をチェックインしている。Linq関係のクラスライブラリハッキングが実質的に可能になったと言える。

現時点では gmcs -langversion:linq でC# 3.0の機能が使えるようだ。

これとは別にMiguelがlambdaの実装に着手している。

コメント

yakugo — 02/16/2007 11:19:14

.net 3.0が強制的インストールされましたが。
どうしょう。

yakugo — 02/16/2007 11:30:04

Ok… this time I’ll comment on your actual article and give some helpful advice to your management.

  1. Stop supporting MonoDevelop, move to Eclipse!

  2. Finish ASP.NET 2.0!

2.1 Make Mono a stable platform for .NET Web apps on Linux and you guys can take some decent market share. All this winforms visual stuff is pretty much BS! Go for the fricking server market!

It doesn’t take much ”business intelligence” (oxymoron) to see this…!

Rah rah rah!

atsushieno — 02/16/2007 13:16:49

Well, all of your ideas are bound to whatever you are immediately touching (Java/Eclipse, ASP.NET 2.0) :/

It is absolutely no way to move to Eclipse. Eclipse for Java is great but it is No C# hackers land. Is Eclipse capable of design Gtk# GUI? GtkMozembed#?

Your opinion on market contradicts some professional analysis we (actually Miguel) have. I feel this true through the total reported bugs on each component. Sadlt that S is used so widely in trivial business apps which are too silly to show publicly.

la de da.

atsushieno — 02/27/2007 19:57:33

There are lots of things to point out:

  1. First of all you should notice that Java users almost don’t overlap C# users.

  2. There are of course a lot more ASP.NET on Microsoft.NET users than Mono, and then? That does not tell you anything.

  3. Complaining like you that mono should be more stable is really pointless without any concrete bug information or whatever.

  4. There is nothing that is likely to combine WinForms in Eclipse, nor Gtk#. And of course, SWT for binding sucked hackers: http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SharpWT/

  5. Anything in CPL is incompatible with GPL things.

  6. No one in Mono community loves Eclipse for Mono hacking. IF there are such Eclipse fanboys && mono users, then there must have been decent C# bindings than existing toys. As is shown the forum, Eclipse plugins for other langauges than Java work funny.

  7. You are just looking at Winforms application/control product market, which is almost ignorable. Having WinForms on Linux is not cool at all, but as I said before, there are lots of intra WinForms users.

  8. The vote you quoted never supports your opinion. It just reflects that there are about 30% of Linux users who develop Java applications.

  9. We do not stop hacking ASP.NET. Actually, it is one of the most developed area now.

yakuzoyara — 03/01/2007 13:51:09

  1. First of all you should notice that Java users almost don’t overlap C# users.

What! Of course there’s overlap… when C# devs need to earn some money for food they develop in Java right? *ducks*

  1. There are of course a lot more ASP.NET on Microsoft.NET users than Mono, and then? That does not tell you anything.

It tells you where it might be valuable to focus your dev resources to gain market share.

  1. Complaining like you that mono should be more stable is really pointless without any concrete bug information or whatever.

I’m not complaining that it ”should be more stable”, I’m complaining that from what I’ve heard/seen about your resource allocation suggests that you guys don’t think it’s that important. 1 guy doing everything is a bit harsh, you have to admit.

  1. There is nothing that is likely to combine WinForms in Eclipse, nor Gtk#. And of course, SWT for binding sucked hackers: http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SharpWT/

Okay… integrating with Eclipse is hard. I’ll give up on that one. :)

  1. Anything in CPL is incompatible with GPL things.

???

  1. No one in Mono community loves Eclipse for Mono hacking. IF there are such Eclipse fanboys && mono users, then there must have been decent C# bindings than existing toys. As is shown the forum, Eclipse plugins for other langauges than Java work funny.

I agree. I think, though, that the goal of decent Eclipse integration would be to seduce more Java users to the Mono side.

  1. You are just looking at Winforms application/control product market, which is almost ignorable. Having WinForms on Linux is not cool at all, but as I said before, there are lots of intra WinForms users.

I dunno… I don’t see what market you guys are going after. Intra-WinForms? My point was that the web application market is growing… and much bigger than any linux only or even crossplatform gui app market.

  1. The vote you quoted never supports your opinion. It just reflects that there are about 30% of Linux users who develop Java applications.

Actually it was a choice of dev environments… not language. It just so happens that Eclipse is almost solely used for java. I thought that might be a good opportunity for Mono to win converts… but if it really is as difficult as you say to integrate correctly, then I suppose it’s a moot point.

  1. We do not stop hacking ASP.NET. Actually, it is one of the most developed area now.

I’m happy to hear that… but sometimes it seems like emense effort is being spent on projects with low potential for fame or fortune.

atsushieno — 03/01/2007 14:37:40

  1. At least there are very few people who move from Java to Mono. It is almost ignorable. Second, a lot more people move from .NET to Mono, where no overlap is happening.

  2. The point you miss here is that ”there is a lot more Microsoft XXX than Mono” happens everywhere. ASP.NET is nothing special.

  3. In every areas except for winforms there are less than 3 hackers (BTW you didn’t count those Mainsoft hackers who only work on service side thingy). The more serious question is, on which on earth do you keep complaining about then?

  4. Eclipse is under CPL. In-process binding to GPLed thingy is not possible, which could be mess.

  5. Growth on Linux-ready GUI market is not part of the argument. Only the growth on winforms usage matters here (”market” is very misleading when those users don’t sell their apps).

  6. Language is almost dev environment, except for Emacs. Java people love Eclipse because any other IDEs for Java sucked and a lot of people simply used text editors.

  7. Sadly nothing is less important at current state. We already dropped some important tasks last year.

yakizo — 03/02/2007 18:22:27

Ok ok… I give up.
Ignore my brilliant advice, see if I care. :)

But answer me this…

Do you think the future is in Web Apps or Lin/Win GUI Apps?

atsushieno — 03/02/2007 22:29:40

I was kind of waiting that question ;-)

The future is unlikely with ASP.NET.

yakuzoya — 02/27/2007 18:45:03

Allow me to continue my little flame if I might…

I would guess that more people use just Eclipse than all of Mono combined… so it’s not just me and my invisible friend. :)

As far as ASP.NET… that too I suspect more people are using than Mono.

If you believe Microsoft’s PR,
http://www.port80software.com/about/press/060105
there is plenty of opportunity for Mono to get some easy market share.

I’m sure that if you guys could provide a stable linux based ASP.NET stack many of those companies would jump ship just to save the 10s of thousands of dollars in M$ licensing costs each month.

Along the same lines, I don’t think there is any Windows Forms application market share that’s easy to steal. And providing Windows Forms on Linux is cool, but probably not as easy a market to break into.

Even Linux peoples like Eclipse…
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=514960

yakuzoyada — 02/27/2007 19:09:49

Some other links:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web\_server\_survey.html
http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=19970

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